>> you may not be familiar with the tax laws. i think we'll move on to the next -- >> i don't see -- >> order, mr. ellis. >> perhaps we must go to the courtroom in the 1930's. asking you questions. were you surprised at the amount of intelligence gathering which was revealed as a result of what snowden gave to your newspaper and other media outlets? >> i think many people are staggered by the amount of -- >> gave yourself, if i may interrupt, were you -- >> i was staggered. i think we all knew that the intelligence agencies collected a lot of data. and people are still trying to make out as though this data -- as though nothing has changed in the last 15 years since the laws were passed with a lot of analog laws that deal with the digital world. i think the last serious law that -- that was passed about any of this material was 2000, a time when facebook hasn't been invented, when google was doing the initial funding round. and we're pretending that the laws that cover really crocodile clips on copper wires are stretchable to dea